We've been talking about a lot of very serious issues lately. There have been the Citadel Application Process, Citadel: Entrepreneurs & Businesses, Citadel Location: Benewah County, and of course we can't have any of those conversations without the III Arms Company.
We have discussed The Citadel Patriot Agreement and the Command Structure. We have dissected rules, regs, and personal preferences. We have debated uniforms, comms, and guns and ammo, and badges and food storage.
I say enough! Or, at least for the moment. Let's take a break and let our imaginations rev up and see what we can come up with concerning the "look" of the Citadel.
It seems that the aspect of tourism always creeps into our conversations, so let's take a look at that. If we plan this out correctly we should be able to establish a lucrative tourist industry centered around the Citadel, with of course, III Arms being the Jewel of the Crown.
Here are the facts:
- The Citadel will look like a medieval castle.
- The main industry will be the III Arms factory.
- It will be set in the West, in logging and mining country.
- It will be populated by freedom loving, Liberty seeking Patriots.
What kind of image do we want to project and play upon?
- Do you want to go the whole nine yards with the medieval theme? Granted there would be a lot to play on with that theme, but it could be limiting too.
- How about a lodge/hunting theme?
- Or perhaps, you see an old fashioned western town in your mind? Personally, I have trouble reconciling the castle in the background with this one, but hey, that's just me. Not to mention, the area really isn't "cowboy".
- Maybe we should play down the obvious and just go with the guns and ammo theme?
- Or should we go all Colonial and emphasise our American history, our Constitution, and the men and the times that brought it about?
Number 1 and 2 could possibly be combined...
Number 3 and 4 could be combined....
Number 3 and 4 could be combined....
We could just put it all in the blender and come up with something uniquely American.
We have to keep in mind that no matter what we decide our look is going to be, we always need to be mindful of Rightful Liberty and that we are a Martial Endeavor. Those two ideas, have to always be seamlessly worked into our everyday lives.
So Patriots, what do you think? What "look" do you want the Citadel to project? Pretend that you're the King/Queen of the Citadel, what would you proclaim?
Be wild, be crazy, throw those thoughts out there! This is where we seperate the good, the bad, and the ugly!
Regarding the Colonial aspect, in So.Kalif. there is a place called Riley's Farm. They have "living history" programs and Hawks Head Public House restaurant where the servers are dressed in period, they use candles at night etc etc... Look at www.rileysfarm.com For the tourist aspect to take off there should be a Wow! factor when they drive up and thru the gates ala "When we drove inside it was..cool, neato, groovy, awesome, the bee's knees... pick your feeling...
ReplyDeleteBoarshide
I couldn't agree more. We have to make driving to see us worth the effort.
DeleteI'm not getting down on the castle theme but keep in mind who used to live in those things. A LORD who RULED over all he saw. Back to work, peasant - your crop tax is coming due...
ReplyDeleteDaniel
Castle or stockade. I'm still trying to come up with something Confederate.........:)
ReplyDeleteThat goes without saying Brock. ;) If we turn it into a southern plantation, will you move? LOL.
DeletePersonally I think kings and queens are oversold already.
ReplyDeleteCreativity is always tough--and often looks stupid at first--because nobody's ever thought of it before. Duh. Whatever it is, it's got to be different for someone to want to go there. If it's the same as somewhere else, some potential customers will go somewhere else.
Seems to me you're building the future, not the past. I don't know how to turn that into a tourist attraction, but it's focal IMO. That, and transparency. The whole world is selling the Endarkenment; maybe sell the Enbrightenment.
In the end, you're all just being yourselves, and people love to gawk. Let 'em gawk at something good for a change; they'll pay.
The world is driven by fear and worry. Sell ataraxia. Nobody's ever done that before, and you'll be perfectly set up for it. And not only that, you can charge by the hour! Who wouldn't pay to gawk at tomorrow?
I like that line of thinking, Jim.
DeleteDaniel
Now I have to look up ataraxis....
DeleteATARAXIA
Dictionary entry overview: What does ataraxia mean?
• ATARAXIA (noun)
The noun ATARAXIA has 1 sense:
1. peace of mind
Familiarity information: ATARAXIA used as a noun is very rare.
Dictionary entry details
• ATARAXIA (noun)
Sense 1 ataraxia [BACK TO TOP]
Meaning:
Peace of mind
Classified under:
Nouns denoting attributes of people and objects
Hypernyms ("ataraxia" is a kind of...):
placidity; quiet; repose; serenity; tranquility; tranquillity (a disposition free from stress or emotion)
Now, there's a thought!
Earth fort
ReplyDeletecastle wolfenstein comes to mind. :) legitimate sci-fi nerd here.
ReplyDeleteMy vote is for Colonial. Parts of many contemporary cities are still designed like this - albeit initially 250 years ago. The Colonial theme re-emphasizes where we're coming from.
ReplyDeletePlus, many colonial fortifications made use of stone so the look (or the extensive use of reinforced concrete) doesn't have to go out the window.
ReplyDeleteDaniel
Aliens VS. Cowboy. Uh, no, and nuff said. Keep the castle.
ReplyDeleteCenter the theme around armament of the centuries. Since we all will be armed while out, Blunderbuss Avenue, Colt Court, Browning Way, Maxim Street for north/south streets. 9mm Ave, 17HMR street, 22LR street, 45ACP Ave, 50BMG Way. Shotshell Cafe, Buckshot Medical, Shot in the Foot Shoes.
Just my idea....but I like guns.... so I may not count.
Roflol....Gaping Hole Saloon....giggle,snort.
DeleteThe castle theme is tried and true. Almost everyone loves castles. It conjures images from our childhood of honour and nobility. It's something that the world could certainly use more of. Keep it and run with it. Just my 2 shillings.
ReplyDeleteAn overall theme of "Rands' World" appeals to me.
ReplyDeleteModel life in the Citadel on the settlement of "Atlantis" (Galts' Gulch) in Ayn Rands' major work "Atlas Shrugged".
Galt's Gulch was a hidden enclave of producers. This Citadel is such an enclave, but 'hidden in plain sight'.
Focus on one of Rands' other book themes: "Capitalism, the unknown ideal" and the relationship of capitalism to Rightful Liberty.
Tourism advert: "Come experience how life should be lived."
Sell self-help literature to the tourists that explains how to create similar communities elsewhere.
... just a few ideas to debate.
Hans
(in the NC woods)
Combining a medieval castle with colonial times and a touch of steam punk to bring it together with some uniqueness.
ReplyDeleteToo many towns simply build what works without giving much consideration (if any at all) to what the completed project will look like. Thats why this is such a good thread.
Better it will be for us to take the extra time, energy, and cost so that all we build will have that artisan look.
RedWulf
I like the SCA approach - the Middle Ages not as they were, but as they should have been.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I would go for the castle (factory) and city center to be authentically styled (with some creative license) as a medieval town with the residential area being individual choice. The city center would then be unique in all the country and a clear attraction. The SCA types would go nuts about it, I'm sure.
VJ
Yes they would. I've gone to Renfests for many, many years. Even had a few booths once upon a time a number of years back. The interest in such things is truly under-represented, and the amount of money people will spend on that interest is quite considerate.
DeletePeople would, and will, travel from all over the US, and then the world, to see the Citadel. Families will load up the car and the kids and drive to see it, especially those with an interest in Renfests and the like. There could even be an actual Renfest there a few weeks of the year, with interested venues renting space for a few weekends in a row to hold a BRAND NEW Renfest. Many people who are vendors in the various Renfests across the country actually travel across the country from fest to fest, which is why many of them are held at different times of the year.
If we make it into that rotation, the positive exposure and word of mouth will do the rest.
This gives us a way to get positive mention, instead of bad press, right off the bat.
And when folks see just how safe it is to be in a castle full of armed people, they will truly know that an armed society IS a polite society.
And one by one, we will be changing people's real opinions to the better. I can see no downside from this. :D
Remember, that those who will live and work in that space will need to be armed while out in public. 1911's with wild west cowboy attire? Long flowing King/Queen wear and an AR slung across your back?
ReplyDeleteYou come up with period required architecture and themes, you'll be required to wear period accurate wear, loomed broadcloth, wool, leather. No Armani, no Juicy, no Sketchers. If you're going to do this, there is no half assing it, so make it simple.
A modern town surrounded by a wall, with modern people living in it, living the new old way....in Liberty and respect for one another. You want fantasy land, go work/live near Disneyland/World/Colonial Williamsburg.
A Cabela's, ProBass, Home Depot in a medieval town? Not likely. Modern Day sporting arms in a western styled town? Uh, probably not. And I'll be damned if I'll be selling flintlocks before we're forced to close the factory because of an AWB.
This needs to be as it was originally thought: Modern day folks living securely behind solid walls, wanting to be away from the liberal influences that are destroying our country. A safe haven of Liberty and Patriots.
Our draw to others should be Liberty and Common Sense Existence, not some gaudy half-assed theme park. Otherwise we're bringing in and surrounding ourselves daily with the exact type of folks we're trying to get away from.
I need to be firm on this, and I'm not sorry if I piss a few folks off with my thoughts. You want fantasy land, you will turn away a lot of Patriots who just want a place to live, work and be free, not 'play' dress-up just to get things done. And if it comes to that, and I was that person, I would just move 200mi closer to Williamsburg instead of 2500mi to Idaho.
"A modern town surrounded by a wall, with modern people living in it, living the new old way....in Liberty and respect for one another."
DeleteBingo...that's the ticket IMO. Our whole world is built on the premise that this is impossible. IMO people will pay, and pay plenty, to see that it's not.
One tram and 1/2 day tours, is all it would take. If you go old-fashioned, pull 'em with horses; everyone loves a nice carriage ride. Plus, a mounted division might come in handy one day.
And don't forget, the people who decide to set up the other thousand Citadels, will want advice. It may not lend itself to being franchised, but knowledge has value, especially knowledge that nobody else has. As I mentioned some time ago, there's huge value in just being first.
I was never thinking of more than a small town square/market area connected to the castle/factory and matching the style of the factory. Europeans live in cities built centuries ago without giving up any modern ways. The architecture is simply an aesthetically pleasant bonus.
DeleteThat being said, your points are excellent, millerized and I agree.
This is a great discussion. Thanks for bringing it up, Miss V.
VJ
I think the theam should be about this citadel. Well the main point of the citadel is protection for a SHTF/disaster scenario. What is it protecting, Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness,the way of life our forefathers and many others fought and died for. Why do you feel a need to protect it? Well each and every one of you have to answer that for your self.
ReplyDeleteIIIArms will make guns not swords and chain mail. Maybe bayonets at some point.So I think that will kill a full midieval theam. Its over done any way .also the idea of Lords, Nobles and pesants dont realy fit.
With that said, I would say like you stated above, Colonial American with a modern twist focusing on why the Citadel came to be would be good. That still includes the old school tech stuff like black smith,grain mill,ect. A citadel is a fortres and at first sight should be intimidating and project power.When people just see a photo of it they will say " I got to see this", everything else is just iceing on the cake.
millerized's naming idea should be voted on and set in stone.
One thing I would like to see is working cannons on the battlement walls. From what I understand is they are considerd primative wepons and are legal.
Maybe III Arms should make swords at some point, assuming that there is someone who can make such things as part of the Citadel. I'm not talking flights of fantasy crap, but real, useful, historical swords. Such as saber, cutlass, or any of the military officer style swords. Such things are not simple decoration. They have been proven to be highly useful, all throughout history, and I think, are not something to be underestimated to have on one's person in ADDITION to a good rifle and pistol, in a SHTF scenario.
DeleteAlso in a SHTF scenario, powder doesn't last forever. It WILL eventually run out. Then you'll wish you had a few swords, and the highly skilled people amongst you to train you to properly use them.
Personally, I'm leaning toward Jim Klein and Millerized's ideas, combined.
ReplyDeleteBut we would be foolish to ignore the cash potential of bringing in ren fair people. I say from the start, plan on having a space that is just for ren fairs. Make it historically acurate, even have a wall around that space, totally keeping them seperate from everything else. That will lend to the whole real feeling for them and we can go about our business. Of course, other visitors could have the choice of going into the ren fair. The Patriots amoung us who are into that type of thing, could be the ones to work/watch that area.
This is exactly what I was thinking about. I'm not suggesting to make the Citadel into some 'fantasy theme', but rather to have a small area that is as you said, historically accurate. And that's what Renfests are about anyway. Well, most of them. The fantasy and floofery are more for the unwashed masses, but the actual folks that are interested in the renfest from a historical point of view are no more fantasy than the fellow who dresses up to re-enact a battle in Civil War, and wants to make sure they are in as authentic garb as possible.
DeletePatriots have many and varied interests. My thoughts on having a Renfest at the Citadel a few weekends out of the year, is something that would help positive PR.
Otherwise it would tend to exhibit the 'Fortified Nutzo Patriot' stereotype, that we are trying to get away from, and is exactly what the libtards and their bought and paid for mainstream media outlets will paint us as the moment the walls go up.
There's no single answer or easy way forward. But, that's what discussion is for. :D
I like the whole Look-n-Feel of the Medieval Castle for the most part, where wood & stone buildings aren't going to be out of place. The "western" theme doesn't work for me, there -- seems like a bad movie waiting to happen. "The Cowboys of Camelot" or something, LOL! Ick.
ReplyDeleteI don't think having the "castle" look means we all need to run around in 12th century garb though -- I'm not interested in wearing tights! Just the spectacle of a modern castle would be enough to draw visitors, and setting aside a week or two for a RenFair would be cool, too. THEY can do the dress-up part for us!
There are ways to design the Stone/Wood buildings and still keep things "castle-y" but modern. I like the Steampunk part, too -- some of that stuff looks great.
-dan
I agree with Mr. Miller.
ReplyDelete"There's no single answer or easy way forward. But, that's what discussion is for. :D"
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly right. I am loving the discussion, y'all rock!
This is an outstanding topic, and everyone is to be commended. This conversation is actually helping to forward vital design aspects as we move forward.
ReplyDeleteA few notes: As Miss V mentioned in her opening, never forget this is to be a Martial Endeavor. Hence, the factory shall be as heavily fortified as possible, and lends itself to an old castle design. The walls serve a utilitarian function to keep out the hordes (obviously not .gov or .mil with air power or artillery.)
The concept for those inside the walls has always been that a small selection of home designs would be available from which to choose, so there would be a general consistency. Some like the monolithic domes, I like Monticello and Federal designs, others like Tudors, et cetera. The Citadel itself will do the construction of the homes in poured concrete, and the finishing (interior and exterior) will be left to the resident for personal taste (and to keep Citadel costs down).
cont'd...
Town Center hasn't really been fleshed out anywhere, regarding design.
DeleteBut this brings us to the ugly and crass discussion that we have had elsewhere and also fits here: The Citadel is to be located in a part of America where there is no work. The entire reason for III Arms was as a cornerstone of industry that would serve the first wave of III Pioneers as a means to eat, "and" because in the event of a SHTF world where FedGov loses the ability to project force, residents of the Citadel will have the means to the tools of defense.
But it has been said elsewhere - the III Arms factory will only employ a small number of people, and will never be able to support a town. Entrepreneurs need to take the leap once things get rolling, especially entrepreneurs who are able to reach a regional and/or national market so that the residents of the Citadel aren't simply trading FRNs among one another, but real wealth is being generated.
The castle design (actually the Keep or Stronghold) and the curtain walls lend themselves to medieval design for utilitarian purposes. Poured and reinforced concrete with the proper stone pattern and color mix will make it look right out of the 12th century, yet be infinitely stronger.
Setting aside a small piece of the Citadel, inside and perhaps outside the walls, will bring RenFaire people from across the entire country to spend their FRNs. LOTS of FRNs. It is a lucrative sector of society.
Similarly, I had even thought of a small part of the Citadel (perhaps inside the walls, but probably outside because of space constraints) build like a set right out of Deadwood, where we could lure the rather large number of Cowboy Shooting enthusiasts and their tournaments to spend their FRNs.
This all falls under the heading of Tourism. A Colonial village street or crossroads, whether inside or outside, will earn its own tourists.
Every one of these ideas has great merit and serious potential to bring money into the Citadel, and more importantly (for even getting the deal to build the Citadel) it brings revenue to the County we choose as home.
That is what we bring to the table for the politicians and citizens of whatever county we call home - jobs and dollars that they desperately need. That, in turn, makes us welcome members of their town. We are no longer outsiders, but fellow Citizens of the area.
The Citadel will have between 2,000 and 3,000 acres, and 640-1280 acres inside the walls. That leaves a LOT of Citadel land beyond the walls for stockyards, rifle golf, jousting matches, hayrides and fright night events for Halloween...you get it. But it will take entrepreneurs to weigh in and put some skin in the game to make it happen.
Just for the sake of making sure it is clear - you'll probably never find me in anything but blue jeans - this guy ain't goin' Colonial or Medieval, and I'm too darned short to wear a real cowboy hat, so that ain't happenin' either. ;)
But we will have the space and we will have the need for serious Tourism dollars.
General buildings inside the walls should be utilitarian, and NOT look like concrete bunkers. Stone patterns make the most sense, and wood plays nicely. You get the idea.
III
ReplyDeletehttp://iiicitadel.blogspot.com/2012/10/long-comment-wont-fit.html
Please go to the above link to see this comment and please post any replies under this comment.
I had an idea this morning that perhaps could somewhat reconcile different themes we've talked about. Feel free to tweek the idea or ax it. ;)
ReplyDeleteWe've talked about having something like a gun museum, but with pieces you could actually shoot. If we took, say all the pieces that were popular during the settling of the west we could have let visitors shoot them in a Deadwood type setting. Pieces from colonial times, in a Colonial setting, etc. How elaborate we wanted to get with those settings would entirely depend on what we wanted to do. Not only have the shooting aspect of the time period, but perhaps something to offer the non shooters of the family.
They wouldn't have to be very large areas. With the shooting included they might have to be outside the main wall. The firearms would make it unique. As far as I know, none of the historical re-creation sites let you try the firearms.
DeleteWe could have a "super special" package that allowed you to load and fire a cannon off of the castle wall. No cannon ball, of course. They fire a cannon at one of the old Spanish forts in St. Augustine, Florida. It's a very popular event. We could have a lottery or an auction for that one if there was a lot of demand (which I suspect there might be).
Miller is right, though. Something like this should be no more than a side show to the main purpose of the Citadel. It would be a fun side show, however!
VJ
Vernon,
Delete"No cannon ball, of course." I think that you may be overly cautious here. What is stopping having one of the cannons overlooking the firing ranges? I assume that the firing range will include quite a distance for long distance shooters. So all you would need is to briefly close and clear the range (there should already be procedures for this), then have traversing and elevation limits set for the cannon. Now you are giving people the chance to really fire a cannon. You could even set old vehicles or sheds out there and have a cannoneer to advise in aiming.
Anon 11:11
When I visited one of the forts in St. Augustine Florida they did a cannon firing demo. They said those were able to accurately hit a target something over a mile away. I don't remember the exact number. That would be a kick to shoot a cannon ball at an actual target.
Delete